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On this episode of TWiST, Jason sits down with the man who describes him as his muse, Josh Harris. Josh founded JupiterResearch as well as Pseduo.com, and was the subject of the documentary, We Live in Public. Most recently, Harris is the CEO of Net Band Command, a cloud television network that enables its audience to watch and interact with each other. Watch is these two reminisce and discuss the future of Josh’s current endeavour.
0:30 Today Josh Harris of Net Band Command and the documentary film We Live in Public
2:45 GoToMeeting Use Promo Code “Start” for a Free 30 Day Trial
5:00 Jason’s intro to Josh Harris
5:50 Explain how you started with the radio show?
6:45 What was your viable product at that time?
7:45 How did you come up with the idea for the chat room?
10:00 You raised 10… 20 million dollars?
11:15 You think streaming media and talk shows could have worked back then with you at the helm?
13:00 You’re Yahoo, would you have picked Josh Harris or Mark Cuban?
14:00 What were you paying for bandwidth at the time though?
14:30 Why did you start Jupiter? Explain to us what it was…
18:00 So you decided to start your own Newsletter?
19:15 So you started Jupiter by getting a physical storefront?
20: 35 So when the gulf war happened what happened?
22:00 Igloo Software Intranet you’ll actually like. igloosoftware.com/thisweekin to get a free 30-day trial
25:00 And Jupiter would host all the conferences in NY?
25:45 You owned how much when Prodigy went public?
26:00 So you were worth $100 Million on Paper?
26:15 We Live in Public Trailer
30:18 So you’re worth $100 Million and the dot com boom happens?
31:00 So then you had nothing to do?
31:45 So you rented a huge storefront and did what with it?
32:05 So you build this instillation and get a bunch of artists?
33:15 What was the name of the installation?
33:30 We Live in Public was a separate project right? What would you have said you were doing?
34:45 So can you explain Quiet a little more?
35:10 How many people were living in this “hotel”?
36:00 So you could change the channels and see other rooms and see exactly what was going on in each room?
36:45 So you have this guy grill them in a white room, anybody can watch? And it’s like it’s a criminal interrogation?
37:20 There was a church too?
38:15 Today do you think this would be an easier project than it was in the late 90s?
38:35 So there was a torture chamber and a gun range as well?
39:45 Were you out of your mind? Were you on drugs?
45:00 And the the party ends and you decide to do what?
45:15 Truman Show Girlfriend
48:00 Do I strike you as the type of man who would put up with Betty?
49:15 So you’re trying to say she was cast specifically for you to be in love with her?
51:00 And you had relations with a woman who was cast to be your mate?
51:30 Does that not seem kind of sick? Why did you do it?
52:00 Do you think you hurt her?
54:00 So you could just walk around your house and see what the viewers were saying?
54:45 So her Head People were influencing her?
55:00 Do you think that’s happening now though with Twitter?
57:30 How is net band command different from Pseudo?
61:45 Do you think users will get enough benefit out of that?
62:15 Tyler does that sound crazy?
64:15 What if I’m just not in the mood to talk?
65:45 So what are we looking at here? (See graphic)
67:45 So something like this, like a mission control?
68:30 Why did Facebook make it to where it is?
69:00 So it this art, business, or TV? When can it get off the ground?
69:35 So is this real or fake this time?
71:00 What is the minimal viable product of Net Band?
72:40 So it’s like the Big Brother concept?
74:45 Mark Scarpa is here as well
76:30 Mark do you think Josh’s online wife regrets a moment of her time?
79:00 Mark was with us back in the day at Silicon Alley Reporter
80:15 Mark What do you think about Net Band?
87:00 Would you consider using a platfrom like oovoo.com?
89:30 Josh you’re a true visionary.
93:15 Thanks everyone, see you next time
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Jason: Today, on ThisWeekIn Startups, the internet legend and documentary subject, Josh Harris, of Psuedo.com, We Live In Public, and, Jupiter Communications-fame. Stick with us. It’s going to be a fascinating episode.
TWiST title sequence.
Jason: Hello, everybody. Hello, everybody. Welcome to, another exciting episode of ThisWeekIn Startups. Episode number, who knows, whatever. There’s a couple hundred of them, now. I am your host, Jason Calacanis. What do we talk about, on this program? Well, it’s called, ThisWeekIn Startups, so, we talk about, what’s happening, with startup companies. One of the things, we like to do, is have famous internet entrepreneurs, on the program. Today, we have one of the most famous, Joshua Harris, of the famed, Psuedo.com. The New York startup, which, essentially, started podcasting, before the term “podcasting” existed. He started web TV, and created, a lot of, the concepts around, reality television. If you’ve seen the documentary film, by Ondi Timoner, We Live In Public, Josh was, obviously, the subject of that film. Also, he created, Jupiter Communications, which, was one of the most respected research firms, in the history of the technology industry. Which, went public and famously made him, a very, wealthy man. For a period of time. We’re going to hear, all those stories, today, on the program. There’s, a lot of, laughing. You know what? As, my father, would say: “If you laugh, your life’s a comedy. If you cry, it’s a tragedy.” We can, only, laugh about these things, at this point. It’s been, so long. Actually, Josh, gave me my start in podcasting, when, I did his radio show, on WEVD, in the ’94 time frame. We’ll get into all that great history. But, before, we do.
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Jason: That’s interesting that, you mentioned, that, Tyler. I did notice that, actually. It doesn’t, even, sound like a phone call. It sounds better than, a phone call.
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Tyler: Hidden cameras. Yeah. It’s that one, there.
Jason: It’s that one? I want a big… Put a camera in the corner. So, I can get a shot of the studio, at some time, or at, some point, and use GoTo Meeting, for it. Hey, there, you go. Anyway, thank you, Citrix, GoTo Meeting. “Meeting is Believing”. Use the promo code: START, for your free 30-day trial.
Jason: In 1994, I was an aspiring, entrepreneur, at the age of 23.
Tyler: Much like, many of the people that are listening to the show.
Jason: You’re going to, really, interrupt me, during, this.
Tyler: Just, for context.
Jason: I’ll kick you out of the studio.
Tyler: Go, ahead.
Jason: I’m doing a loving, warm intro, here.
Tyler: I’m, just, trying to say.
Jason: I’m calling you, Mr. Interruptor, now, Tyler.
Jason: Zip it. I’m going to start over. It was a warm and stormy night…
Tyler: In 1993.
Jason: … in 1993. 1994, probably. I was a 23 year old, kid. I was writing a column, for Paper Magazine, in New York City, called, the Cyber Surfer, about the internet. Nobody knew what the internet was, at the time. The browser was called, Mosaic. The number one entrepreneur, in New York City, who knew about the internet, was a guy named, Josh Harris. I sought him out. He gave me, a lot of, advice on, how to run a company. In fact, taught me the ropes. He put me on radio, for the first time, on WEVD, AM radio. I believe, it was sunday nights. Was that right?
Josh: I think, it was sunday nights, yeah. Every week. Right after the Nick Game, when, we could. Cause, we’d get the audience.
Jason: Yeah. We’d get the audience, from the Nick game. On WEVD. Tell me the concept, in 1994 or 1995, when you did WEVD. You were working, with Prodigy, and you had chat rooms. Explain the concept.
Josh: At the time, streaming hadn’t come, on-line. Glaser hadn’t invented, Real Media, yet.
Jason: There was, no streaming audio, on the internet?
Josh: Actually, on Prodigy, there was. It was, just, not, very, well done.
Jason: You couldn’t, realistically, stream live radio? It didn’t work, at 14.4Kbps?
Josh: Sort of. It wasn’t smooth.
Jason: It would buffer, for 30 seconds, then, stop. It was not, like, it is, today. Where, you get HD streaming, over the internet?
Josh: So, we started with the radio show. Waited for someone to come out with streaming. The minute that Glaser, from Real Media, came out with it, we deployed it and built our own studios.
Jason: At that time, you were experimenting. Your minimum viable product was, renting studio time, at a local AM station. Then you had chatters, in the chat room, on Prodigy, who were paying, three to four dollars, an hour to chat, at that time.
Josh: Actually, our viable product was running chat, on Prodigy. Which, we were gettIng 15 points on $2.35, an hour.
Jason: So, you were making 35 cents, or something?
Josh: Yeah. We were doing 80% of their total, independent traffic and 40% of their, complete traffic, within, a year.
Jason: People were paying two dollars and change, to be on Prodigy, per hour?
Josh: Until, Steve Case came along and creamed them.
Jason: That AOL was going to be…
Josh: Flat rate pricing: $5. The beauty of it was, that, Prodigy, allowed AOL, to advertise, on their service. So, they cannibalized, all their customers.
Jason: Wow. That was a crazy decision. I remember being in the studio, back then, 1994 or 95. It was a mind-boggling experience, to see, people in a chat room, who were responding, to what you were saying, on the radio. How did you come up with that idea?
Josh: Wow. That’s a good question.
Jason: You realize, it had never been done?
Josh: It seemed like the logical thing to do. Since, we started doing the chat video, on Prodigy, I’ve been driving, toward that problem. Literally, it’s been…
Jason: 20 years. Almost.
Josh: I’ll go in, 20 years. If nothing else, I’m a persistent son of a gun.
Jason: You are a persistent son-of-a-bitch.
Josh: Ah! (pointing to swear jar)
Jason: I don’t know. Is that a curse word? I don’t think so. It has to be, one of the seven dirty words.
Josh: Is this the MCC Mahalo commission?
Jason: No. This money goes to paying for a keg. When we hit a hundred bucks, or two hundred bucks, we buy a keg, for the team. We have a “kegger”. So, you have that chat room and you’re experimenting. Then, Rob Glaser comes out with streaming audio. You build a studio, very similar to the one that’s here. In fact, ThisWeekIn is a, complete, rip-off of, what you did, with Pseudo, at YCombinator.
Josh: It’s a, complete, rip-off of, yourself, because, you were doing Silicon Alley Reporter.
Jason: And, that’s correct.
Josh: I have to say, maybe we can dub in the soundtrack. I’ll give you the soundtracks, later. The intros and outros, for Silicon Alley Reporter are, still, fabulous.
Jason: (imitating narrator) “You are listening to the Silicon Alley Reporter.” If people don’t know, Silicon Alley Reporter was, the magazine that I created, in the 1995-96 time frame. We did a show, which was audio, initially. Then, one day, we came into the studio and we, actually, had video.
Josh: As soon as, Rob came out with the video, we transitioned, to the video component. Within, the programming, the idea is the same. The creation of, very, low-cost programming, that incorporates the audience. In the best case scenario, the audience is the show, guided by the host. Back then, it had to be in a studio. Nowadays, it can be done, from people’s home , mobile, or office studios.
Jason: This, entire expedition, led to raising venture capital, and building, what, most people considered, the next big IPO. The next big company, in Silicon Alley, in the internet space.
Josh: We had Intel, LVMH, Tribune Company.
Jason: LVMH. The handbag maker? Chanel and everything?
Josh: Yeah. Arnell.
Jason: So, you raised, $10, $20 million dollars?
Josh: $18 million dollars.
Jason: This was in ’99?
Josh: This was in ’98. The cadence went: Prodigy, ended up, buying us out. All told, we generated, $5 million in, free capital, from them. Then, we raised, $5 million, in angel capital. Then, we raised, $18 million in, true, venture capital. Series A.
Jason: So, $28 million?
Josh: $28 million. The only caveat, on that last $18 million was, that they made me displace myself, as C.E.O.. We brought in, David Borman, eventually. Who, now runs, Current TV.
Jason: He runs Current TV, now?
Josh: Yeah. They should have never, let me off the hook.
Jason: They should have kept you in?
Jason: And, it would have worked out, you think? Do you think, the business was, way too, early. The idea of, streaming media and talk shows? It’s barely working, now. Let’s be honest. I’ve got it working, here, in a small way.
Josh: Let me put it to you, Jason. Here’s the question. If you “B.S.” me… which, doesn’t count in the jar… if you “B.S.” me, I’ll know it.
Jason: No “Bull Sugar.”
Josh: It’s 1999. For arguments sake, I’m running the company, Pseudo Programs, Inc. You’re Yahoo!. You’re going to invest $1 billion dollars, in what I now call, the “cloudcasting” field or “netcasting” field. Your choice, the smart move, in 20/20 hindsight is, Josh Harris or Mark Cuban? You’re Yahoo! and now, we’re ten or fifteen years, later.
Jason: At the time, Mark ran AudioNet. Which, became, Broadcaster.com and, famously, sold for $5 billion. People consider you guys, contemporaries. You were building content. He was providing services and pipeline.
Josh: One, was, a production platform play. One guy was, selling sales.
Jason: He was selling infrastructure.
Josh: What was the infrastructure?
Jason: Studios. Streaming space.
Josh: He didn’t have any studios.
Jason: He had some.
Josh: Yeah. But, not really.
Jason: The would send production facilities.
Josh: That wasn’t what they were selling. They had a sales force, that, was selling to brands, who, were paying them money, cause, they didn’t know what was going on. Let me put it to you, now. You’re, Yahoo! In 20/20 hindsight…
Jason: Which vision? I would have picked, your vision.
Josh: Imagine if they’d pumped, $100 million dollars, a year into…
Jason: Into original programming. YouTube is pumping, hundreds of millions of dollars, into independent media, as we speak. Including, one of my companies, Mahalo.com. So YouTube, essentially, is doing, what you, just, explained.
Josh: Again. If Yahoo! had been doing it, persistently, and with, a good production team, out of New York…
Jason: I think, Yahoo! would be, YouTube. Five years, before, it existed.
Josh: At the time, the real problem came down to the fact, that, the logical decision, was not the correct decision. The correct decision, at the time, was what Mark Cuban did. Which, was…
Jason: Cap $25 million in revenue, a quarter.
Josh: He sold the revenues. He didn’t sell the products.
Josh: The bought that, because, they were getting multiples, on their stock. Not, because, it was, strategically valuable to the company.
Jason: Yes. That’s why they made that decision. It made more sense, to Wall Street. Which, was acting irrational, at the time. But, there was value, there. In terms of the $100 million, they were making, per year.
Josh: From a pragmatic standpoint, I did the right thing. But, not from the market standpoint.
Jason: At the time, how much were you paying for bandwidth? The bandwidth, was a huge portion, of the cost.
Josh: Before, we get to bandwidth. Remember, you have to store the streams.
Jason: Yes. I remember the storage.
Josh: By the way, we didn’t call it “podcasting”. We called it, “netcasting”. If you recall, we had a sign that read, not “ON AIR”, rather, “ON NET”. So, we were looking at the industrial jargon, back then.
Jason: Yeah. People, to this day, still, don’t know what to call, what we do, here. They say it’s a podcast. But, this has nothing to do with “podcasting”.
Josh: I think, it’s “cloudcasting”. I think, that’s the, more, elegant version. I’m gonna go with cloudcasting. I don’t know if, it will stick, in the industry. Last night, you showed me a chip, with how many gigs, on it?
Jason: 128GB. That’s a 100 bucks. That was an SD card.
Josh: I wrote a check for $125,000, for 60GB, worth of storage.
Josh: So, the bandwidth was concomitant. That wasn’t the real thing. We went into industrial production.
Jason: At a time when, the advertisers, just, didn’t understand what you were doing. You were, that, far ahead.
Josh: The play was, to be in it, to win it. That, was, sort of, my pattern. I did that, with Jupiter. I started it, in 1986.
Jason: Why did you start, Jupiter? What was that, exactly?
Josh: So, I can do what I’m doing, now. I’m in a fairly strict and forward vector, toward, what I’m doing.
Jason: Explain to the audience, what Jupiter, was. Why did you start it? In plain english.
Josh: First, of all. My background. I went to the Annenberg School of Communications, at USC, for graduate school. UC San Diego, for undergrad. Both, for communications. I got a job, in Bethesda, for a newsletter. Back, when, you could make money, with newsletters. Called, International Videotex Teletex News. Teletex was the thing that they put in the vertical blanking intervals on television. In the bars, that roll. Then, if you have a correct reader, it would play. And, I worked, for CBS, making teletex, for a little bit of time.
Jason: What was the purpose of teletex?
Josh: The idea is, like, Direct TV, but, without the steroids.
Jason: Got it. So, a little bit of, information contained in the stream?
Josh: Really, SAP. It’s a subtitling, but it’s set for information. Then, I worked for, Pat McGovern’s International Data Corporation.
Josh: IDG, at the time. As a consultant in the videotex business, I was, a senior videotex analyst.
Jason: You consulted, with what companies?
Josh: The banks. All the major banks, major financial institutions. Then, oddly, enough, Knight Ridder and Times Mirror, who were dabbling in the online medium, spent, a fair amount of, their capital, to do it. Then, gave up on it, just, before the browser, came out.
Jason: Wow. This was in the early 90s?
Josh: No. This was from, 1984 thru 1988. Times Mirror and Knight Ridder, both, understood, what was going on. They just didn’t have the wherewithal, the DNA, to really figure it out.
Jason: They couldn’t lean, into it. They couldn’t stick, with it. So, you decide, your going to start your own newsletter, about?
Josh: One day, I realized, I could do it better. Long story. But, I can do it, better. I was kicking ass, at IDG.
Jason: You were considered, one of the best analysts?
Josh: Yeah. At that time, I was in the The New York Times and in the Wall Street Journal. Being quoted, fairly, regularly.
Jason: About the coming information revolution?
Josh: Well, with Knight Ridder closing down, or Viewtron or CompuServe or Delphi.
Jason: Were all the online services, where you would dial up.
Josh: The dial ups. The pay-per-hour dial-ups. I knew all of the greats, in the industry. I knew Bill McGowan, who started CompuServe. Steve Case, before he started, PC Link. Which, went QuantumLink, which, was a commodore-only service. Then, he went to the PC Link. He combined the enterprise into, a company, called, AOL.
Jason: America OnLine?
Josh: Yeah. I, basically….
Jason: Covered him, on the way up?
Josh: Well, I covered him, on the way up, and we got into it, a lot. I started writing, about AOL, and what they’re doing, well. In that era, he was, clearly, the best executive.
Jason: He was the top guy? Excution-wise.
Josh: He was a stud. He’d get pissed at me. I started writing the research reports, for example, explaining how he was cleaning Prodigy’s clock. Then, of course, the Prodigy Reports, 1 & 2. Which, is, sort of, how I got the contract to do, Prodigy chat.
Jason: You started, Jupiter Communications, just, by starting a store front? Or, getting an office? Did you do this out of your apartment?
Josh: I took an office. I’d built my mailing list. You know, the usual. The first thing I did was, I started a newsletter.
Jason: A physical mailing list?
Josh: On a computer, but, yeah.
Jason: You would print out labels, and, say, “I have a report, coming out. Fill out this form”.
Josh: The first thing was the newsletter. Which, was, Connect Times. All I did was, get on, all, the chat rooms and all the message boards, and have people count. Since, there was no sound, to try to save money, I used deaf community. No. It didn’t work. We had deaf people counting.
Jason: They would count, how many people were in the room?
Josh: Yeah. They’d go in, at 8 o’clock, at night, on all five services, and they’d count.
Jason: Count, how many people were in the chat rooms?
Josh: How many people, how many messages, were left.
Jason: Got it. So, you’d be able to tell the activity, on CompuServe, Prodigy, etc…
Josh: Which, none of my competitors, were doing. Then, I started making research reports. I did a set of research reports. The third piece in the puzzle was, of course, conferences. The reason I was able to beat the Gulf War, which was when, all of my little competitors, went out, was because, I had a balanced attack.
Jason: When the Gulf War happened, in ’90, what happened?
Josh: It was the best thing that, ever, happened, to Jupiter. Because, the day before the Gulf War, broke out, in the New York Times, I’m quoted prominently, explaining how, these new fangled news services, like, CNN…
Jason: Which, was a new service, out of Atlanta.
Josh: Which, was new, and the online services, are able to cover war, better than, the television networks, per se. The next day, Bernard Shaw, was in front of a satellite T.V., and CNN, blew up. Two weeks, later, Lou Dobbs, had me in his office. Him, smoking a cigar. Me, with my cigar, in my mouth. Looking, at each other, like, who’s a bigger stud? He was bigger than me.
Jason: That was a big deal. That was what made CNN: the Gulf War. You’d turn to ABC or CBS, they might break into coverage of, Hill Street Blues, to show five minutes of, something. Or, to tell you, something’s coming, at eleven. CNN, covered it, around the clock.
Josh: And, they got it right.
Jason: They did a good job.
Josh: They were at the early stage, where, they were tough.
Jason: I’m going to play the trailer for, We Live In Public. In a moment. Then, we’re going to come back and talk about the rest of your amazing story. This is going to be an amazing hour, with, Josh Harris, here.
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Jason: When, we left our hero, Josh Harris, he was telling us about, CNN, and the early days.
Josh: When Lou was at his Zenith.
Jason: He was at the height of his career. The zenith. He was doing, incredible. Pseudo…
Josh: That popped us on CNN. We were regulars, there. Then, that got us as regulars on the Wall Street Journal.
Jason: Then, the internet happened in ’93, ’94, ’95.
Josh: When Case went public, that’s when it happened. That’s how we popped the Jupiter brand.
Jason: Jupiter would host all of the internet conferences, in New York. I went to them. Obviously, I copied them, when I did Silicon Alley Reporter. So, I copied your first company.
Josh: I told Gene DeRosa, who was then, C.E.O., to buy you.
Jason: I know.
Josh: What happened?
Jason: It never happened. He couldn’t come to terms. Should have. It would have been more money than I made on the sale to Dow Jones. But, I did watch you grow that conference business. I said, “My God. That’s a great business.” Holy Cow. Then, you departed that business, to go do the Prodigy work. But, that company went public. You were a major shareholder. You owned 20% when it went public? 15%?
Josh: A little more.
Jason: 25% of the company worth…
Josh: I had, already, cashed out, for a couple million. Gardener Group, bought a chunk of it.
Jason: It went public at $500 million, $1 billion. Something, crazy, like that.
Josh: I think, $400 million.
Jason: So, you’re worth $100 million, on paper?
Josh: Something, like that. Easy come, easy go.
Jason: Let’s play the trailer, from We Live In Public.
We Live In Public Trailer: The internet is, like, this new human experience. At first, everybody’s gonna, like it. Then, there will be a fundamental change, in the human condition. One day, we’re all going to wake up and realize that, we’re just servants. It’s captured us.
It was genius, cause, no one had done it yet.
He was saying that this is the way it’s going to be. He was right. I mean, he was right.
He was selling companies for a couple million dollars, when, we were all, just, a bunch of kids getting paid ten bucks, an hour, trying to figure out HTML.
Josh, was one of these new idols, that, everybody, suddenly, wanted to be.
I’m in a race to take CBS, out of business.
He was, always, trying to advance the inevitable. This is going to happen. Let’s try it, now.
It is our function, as artists, to make the spectator, see the world, our way.
People want fifteen minutes of fame, everyday.
We built a bunker and showed them the future.
We going to record, Stasi-type of intelligence.
There were cameras, everywhere.
There were cameras set up in the showers and the toilets.
They’re eating, shitting, and having sex, in public. People ate it up.
This was one of the most extraordinary activities, I’d ever attended. Anywhere, in the world.
Really, the question, becomes, “Who is behind this? What’s going on?”
I’ve joined a cult.
Everything is free. Except the video, that we capture, of you. That, we own.
Welcome to We Live In Public.
Then, he said, “I want to put 32 cameras, in the loft. Wired to the internet. I want us to be the first couple, to live in public.”
It was viewable, to the masses.
There was the giddy first month.
There was all this press and hype. “They’re going to conceive, in public.”
It wasn’t, just, we live in public. He was going down, financially.
I need to tell you. You’ve got a negative balance, in your checking account.
I just don’t want to give them, anything, more.
Leave, now. Out.
Josh was the puppet master.
I want to know, why he’s doing business, in this manner.
I came downstairs and saw, a bunch of, people running around naked and shooting firearms.
It was, such, a crazy and somewhat dangerous scene. Cause, you knew that someone, was going to flip out.
She grabbed my throat.
Basically, all hell broke loose.
He’s going to wind up, in jail.
Speaking to you, virtually. Is how, I know how, to do this best.
Everything that he does, is a precursor to something that is going to happen to all of us. Everything.
Three hundred years, ago. The lions and tigers, were, kings of the jungle. Then, one day, they wound up, in zoos. I suspect, we’re on the same track.
Jason: O.K. So, that was the trailer for we live in public. The film by Ondi Timoner, that tells, your story. Somewhat, accurately, I guess.
Jason: Somewhat, accurately. I was there. I feel it was pretty accurate.
Josh: Truman Show girlfriend, or not? Let me put it to you, again.
Jason: Let’s not jump, ahead, too far.
Jason: So, you’re worth $100 million. You’re doing Pseudo. You’ve raised $18 million. Then, the .com crash comes.
Josh: Well, your jumping, ahead of, yourself. I had the dough. A lot of money, on paper, between Pseudo and Jupiter, which, was simply, liquid. The venture capitalists, made me displace, myself.
Jason: They kicked you out, as C.E.O.
Josh: Well, it was, your money or your life. Sort of thing.
Jason: Right. We’re going to give you . It’s your money and your life. Get the money, save your life. O.K. Keep going. You have nothing to do.
Josh: The thing is, they let me off of the hook. “Now”, I had thought to, myself. “The millennium, is coming up.”
Jason: The turn of the century.
Josh: The turn of the millennium.
Jason: And, the millennium.
Josh: There’s only two, so far, christian-wise. Part of what I’d been doing, I was working the underbelly of Manhattan. The cultural scene.
Jason: The art scene, in New York, was, very, strong in the early ’90s.
Josh: And, I’d say that, both, you and I were, both, part and parcel, of that.
Jason: It was a fun time.
Josh: One day, I’m walking down the street. I realized, “Somebody’s gotta do it, for the millennium.” Then, it dawned on me, that, I had the means and opportunity, to conduct a caper.
Jason: You rent a huge storefront.
Josh: Two buildings. Including, Matthew Brady, the civil war photographer’s former studio. On lower Broadway, in Chelsea. It wasn’t like we, just, dropped out of nowhere. We had the whole Williamsburg movement…
Jason: You had a bunch of artists. You build this installation. This an art project… now this is not a business project?
Josh: Well, as we’ll see, now…
Jason: It’s turning into one, because, of the art?
Josh: No. It’s all one motion. It’s, like, poker. You know the famous thing about poker. Do you know how to play poker? I forgot to ask.
Jason: I’ve played, a couple of, hands. It feels, like, I don’t know how to play, at this point in time. I’m running bad.
Josh: You gotta get all the streaks out.
Jason: Oh, boy. Queen 3.
Josh: So, it’s all, one big session. I’m, still, in the tournament. Seems, like, I’m going to stack up. I got a good hand.
Josh: But, anyway, I’m walking down the street, at that time. I realizing, “Somebody’s gotta do it.” It dawns on me that, “It’s me.” I had means and opportunity. The most important thing, on the clip, you just say, relative to things, was the director of the Museum of Modern Art, in New York, saying…
Jason: This is the most important event that she had been to.
Josh: Yeah. She knew it, when, she saw it.
Jason: The name of this installation or project was…?
Josh: Quiet. Because, in order to hear the universal vibrations, you need, quiet.
Jason: We Live In Public was another project, but, got associated with Quiet?
Josh: It got associated, due to the film, yes.
Jason: So, Quiet, is what?
Josh: In modern-day terms or at the time?
Jason: At the time, if you would have explained, to someone, what you were doing, what would you have said?
Josh: It was the culmination of an art movement.
Jason: Got it. How did that manifest, itself?
Josh: The (de ne mois), of it, it put me square, in the line of sight of the Museum of Art. The finest museum of contemporary modern art, in the whole world. For all of you, established entrepreneurs, I started from scratch. I bootstrapped it, from the streets of New York, with my bare knuckles. Wound up making a, respectable, amount of money.
Jason: $100 million.
Josh: A hundred million bucks. Could have cashed, all that. The thing is, making that kind of impact, at the Museum of Modern Art, is much, more difficult. That’s part and parcel of it.
Jason: We, still, haven’t established, what Quiet, is. You invite, a bunch of, artists to build, a commune? A bunker? Explain, what it was.
Josh: Let me put it in modern day terms. Cause, that’s why I built it. I’m building NetBand Command. That’s what I’m working on, now. If you think of it, in terms of that, it’s part of my soundstage. Where people live and entertain, themselves. Eat and do their ablutions. Which, is eight hours, a day. Out of 24.
Jason: You had, how many people living in this?
Josh: There were a hundred available capsules, in the capsule hotel. Plus, anybody could get in that needed to be there.
Jason: And, hangout? So, there are 100 bunk beds, essentially. These capsules, have in them…?
Josh: They were, completely, wired. Cameras and microphones.
Jason: Not internet cameras, though?
Josh: It was a closed circuit.
Jason: Closed circuit. So, you made a cable network?
Josh: I, literally, bought a cable network, co-lo thing.
Jason: A whole infrastructure. How much did that cost?
Josh: The, actual, hardware was $80 thousand.
Jason: You built, this whole, like, rack and it had cameras, everywhere?
Josh: Which, I can now do, for about $100.
Jason: Right. While you’re in, each of these bunkers, in the bunks, you could change channels and watch the other people’s bunks?
Josh: Not only the other bunks. Anywhere, throughout, the facilities. The bathrooms or whatnot.
Jason: Then, in addition to, people living there, watching people sleep, have sex, or take a shower, or whatever…
Josh: There was, for example, an interrogation room.
Jason: An interrogation room, a church.
Josh: By the way, let’s stick with them, one at a time. For the interrogation room, I hired a former, C.I.A. interrogation expert. We gave, every entrant, the Minnesota psychological aptitude test. I forgot the name of it. A famous test. Being in New York, all the people, showing up at these things, thought, they’d seen everything. We figured, we’re going to take them to the next place.
Jason: You give them a psychological test to profile them? Then, he grills them. Like, he’s a Stasi member. In a white room. I remember it like it was yesterday.
Josh: A two-way mirror room. So, we can have cameras on either side.
Jason: Two-way mirror room. So, anybody, can watch.
Josh: Only the Stasi. We didn’t call it Stasi, though.
Jason: But, they’re interrogating people, like, it’s a criminal interrogation?
Josh: It was for business.
Jason: What do you mean?
Josh: It was for business. We weren’t fooling around. Whatever they had, we got out of them.
Jason: People were freaking out, during, some of these.
Josh: Yeah. That was the game. We were there to crack you.
Jason: Then, there was a church.
Josh: Yeah. That was the Church of Arcadia.
Jason: There was a church and you would get up there and give sermons or talks?
Josh: I, actually, did. Part of the reason for building the church, was, to give the lions and tigers, in the jungle, speech. What you see, in the trailer. It’s the whole idea, which, back then, was novel, but, as we’re sitting, here, today, in 2012, we are becoming what we eat. We are becoming the animals, in cages. Redundant to the cloud.
Jason: Ondi, the director’s take, on the film, is, this is Facebook. This is social media. People, now, are recording, everything that they do. They are sharing every detail of their life. You, in 1999, were forcing people to do it, as part of, entrance.
Josh: Who, were not psychologically prepared for that, at the time.
Jason: Today, if you did this, with people, it would be a cake walk. They’re doing it themselves, anyway.
Josh: Except that, now, with NetBand Command…
Jason: The new project.
Josh: I think, I’ve found the sweet spot, timing-wise.
Jason: We’re going to get to that.
Josh: I know. What I’m building, now, is a modern-day, mind blow of what I did back, then.
Jason: Then, there was a big common place, to eat food. Then, there was a gun range.
Josh: The machine gun range. There was also a torture chamber.
Jason: I didn’t remember a torture chamber.
Josh: It was created by an artist, who, specializes in torture chambers. Alfredo.
Jason: I never saw that.
Josh: Then, I guess, it didn’t exist. But, there was. Then, the machine gun range. Can you imagine?
Jason: A machine gun range, in Manhattan?
Josh: Literally, within spitting distance of Police Plaza One.
Jason: Police Plaza One, was caddy-corner to the location. Right by Dwayne Street.
Josh: I don’t think, it would fly, at the moment.
Jason: No. There was big discussion: The millennium was the time when, the terrorist were going to attack, New York. In Times Square, specifically. They had busted people, going to Seattle, with bombs. People don’t remember, all this.
Josh: Two hundred thousand body bags, in New York City.
Jason: There, were body bags in New York. They were ready for a terrorist attack. There were, very, credible threats of a terrorist attack. People had come from Canada to try to interrupt a millennial celebration, in Seattle. That’s the context, in which, you had people firing guns. So, this leads me to say, did you go crazy, at that time? Were you out of your mind on drugs?
Josh: No. First, of all. I don’t, really, drink. I smoke, once, in a while. But, I don’t, really, do much.
Jason: But, people did perceive that you were losing it, at that time?
Josh: No. It was We LIve In Public. That’s what cracked me.
Jason: We Live In Public, is when, people thought that you got cracked?
Josh: Not that I got cracked.
Jason: But, you are cracked.
Josh: Actually, let’s talk about, you and me. Because…
Jason: O.K. I would rather keep talking about you, but, O.K.
Josh: It’s related. All along, you’ve been my muse.
Jason: I don’t know about your muse. I’ve documented…
Josh: You’re in the book. You’re in the movie.
Jason: We were, very, good friends, at the time. You were a mentor, to me.
Josh: True. But, you make a good muse.
Josh: Let me give you the proof of concept. The day I, absolutely, knew I’d lost it, from We Live In Public.
Jason: I remember.
Josh: I had two choices. Your office or Gene De Rosa’s office.
Jason: Oh. Really?
Jason: You picked mine.
Josh: Yeah, because, you’re a better muse. No offense, Gene, but, let’s face it.
Jason: We’ll tell that story, in a minute. We’re skipping over, We Live In Public. So, the event was crazy. I went there, a couple, of times, to check it out. I did not check in. You tried to get me to come join. I didn’t want to join, cause, I thought it was insane. I was right. I’m glad I didn’t, in a way.
Josh: Is that, really, true? Can you imagine, if that was how you spent your millennium.
Jason: Well, maybe, actually, when you think about it, maybe I would have liked to spend, a little more time, there. I wasn’t there for the millennium.
Josh: Test out a pod. Get the feel.
Jason: I, just, feel, I don’t know if I would want to have risked… like, yeah, it was a little crazy.
Josh: Only, the weak of mind, went.
Jason: That’s true. That’s true. Anyway, the thing goes down. You wind up having, a little bit of, violence, in there. People fighting with, each other. But, nothing, too, crazy.
Josh: Actually, the fact of the matter was, at that point, I’d thrown, enough, of these installation events. The people, I was working with, also, were a bit, war-torn, on these things. It was all under control, the whole time, with one minor exception. Which, we didn’t allow to get out of hand. That was David Leslie. Where you ate, looked like Heaven. Right, below it, in Malcolm Brady’s darkroom, looked, like, Hell. It was designed, as Hell. David Leslie, the impact addict, was a, very, profound performance artist. Out of P.S. 122.
Jason: Yeah. I remember him. There were some instances,that occurred. Some people got kicked out. The ended. It was…
Josh: I have to say, the night of New Year’s Eve, I opened the front windows. Using, Dwayne Hanson’s daughter, Maya, Alex Arcadia’s girlfriend, we created a red light district. I got, true, super models, in scantily clad lingerie, swinging on trapezes. Red lights. The whole nine yards. Big neon signs, “Girls girls, girls.” Then, another neon sign, saying, “XXX”. So, just as the security forces were headed to keep New York City out of harm’s way, Times Square, they all drove, by it. I knew they couldn’t get me, then. In that day and time, after Giuliani…
Jason: Giuliani was cracking down on everything.
Josh: Billy Topless, if you recall.
Jason: Billy’s Topless, was a topless joint that Giuliani shut down?
Josh: No. They had to put a top on. They called it Billy’s Stopless.
Jason: It used to be called, Billy’s Topless. Famous, on the corner of 24th and 6th?
Josh: That’s, pretty, good, Jason.
Jason: I’ve never been in it. It was famous, because, it had, in the “TOPLESS”, the “O”, was glass. You couldn’t look in, but, it was glass. You thought you could look in. You could, actually, only look out.
Josh: You could, sort of, peek.
Jason: You could, sort of, try to see in. It was tinted glass.
Josh: I didn’t know that.
Jason: It was “Topless”, then, he was upset, they said, “You have to take that sign down.” He said, no, it’s “Billy’s Stopless, now.” He put an “S”. The was the concept at the time.
Josh: I knew, on the way up, they weren’t going to be able to get me. But, on the way down, I knew they were coming. In order to have the greatest party, in the history of New York, which, according to The Museum of Modern Art, in fact, it was, you have to have the greatest after party. The twist of the after party: it wasn’t for the residents of the Capsule Hotel. It was for the security forces. They had, already, been in there. It had been on Fox News. It was a soft bunker.
Jason: The cops had come a bunch of times.
Josh: The FBI, FEMA, the fire department, the white-hatted police, the top brass came. They’d just saved New York, from any harm.
Jason: They wanted to blow off some steam.
Josh: They hung out for three hours. Playing with, Arnold Swarzenegger’s Terminator gun. We were using a movie rental house, for machine guns. They had the time of their life. The same guys that went into the buildings on 9/11. It was the last time, maybe, that they all got together.
Jason: Then, after that, the party ends. You decide you’re going to do…?
Josh: Well, here we go. I didn’t, just, decide to do this. I cast my Truman Show girlfriend, years in advance. Again, you’re the proof, of that.
Jason: Here’s, We Live In Public.
We Live In Public: Good evening. It’s your sanctuary, from the outside world. The most private place, in your life. Unless, you’re the couple in our first story, tonight. They installed, nearly, three dozen cameras, in their home. They put their lives, on display, over the internet. Every breath, every bite, every move they made. But, what began as a daring and, very, personal experiment, became the toughest test, their relationship ever faced. Perhaps, to no one’s surprise, but, their own, the couple’s lives would begin to unravel. While, thousands of people watched. John Hockenberry visited, their, very, public housing.
When, he first asked me. I remember, very, clearly. It was early, in the morning. We had, just, gotten up. He said, “I want to put 32 cameras, in the loft, wired to the internet. I want us to be the first couple to, fully, expose ourself and live in public.
It was not, exactly, the proposal, Tanya Corrin’s, mom had prepared her for. But, then, no mom could ever prepare their daughter for boyfriend, Josh Harris. 21st century, internet visionary, he founded two multi-million dollar companies. Josh’s newest endeavor, gives the term, “Going Public”, a whole new meaning.
What, really, mattered to me, more than anything, was to live in public.
He doesn’t mean public, in the sense of being famous or being rich. 39 year-old, Josh’s worth, was, at one time, estimated to be $40 million. No. Josh’s idea was, to turn his life and whoever else, walked through it, into a live internet T.V. show.
I have 24/7, comprehensive surveillance, of my life. At a cost of, over, $2 million, Josh, installed cameras in his, New York City loft. For 100 days, anyone who logged onto the internet, could see free video of every action, every movement. From the, really, mundane, to the mundane, really.
But, love is not mundane. Tanya and Josh, were about to test their four-year relationship. How would they do? Well, they had, already, moved in, together. They, both, loved the internet.
I felt that it would be an incredible growing experience. I thought, maybe, it would bring us close, together.
But, Tanya, did have some doubts.
He cares, a lot, about, an awful lot of, strange things.
Josh, by his own account, a head strong artist, did have some wild, some might say, “Peculiar”, opinions. But, no matter. Love would conquer, all. WE LIVE IN PUBLIC. COM, was born.
You’ve got a grid, up here, for lights.
Jason: Ok. You decide, you’re going to live with, Tanya. Who, I was there, the night you met her. How does that go?
Josh: Let me put it to you. I’ve got another one, to put to you.
Josh: Do I strike you as the type of man, that would put up with, Betty?
Josh: You know what I’m talking about? You wrote it up in the magazine.
Jason: Anyway. I don’t know. That’s, kind of, personal information, there.
Josh: You wrote it up in, Paper. When, you were Mr. Silicon Alley Reporter.
Jason: I don’t know. Who knows. What’s your point?
Josh: That was early, in the game. For everyone else, Betty X, for argument’s sake, was publicly, in Paper magazine, via reporter, Jason Calacanis, having an affair with, my Truman Show girlfriend.
Jason: I don’t think, I wrote that.
Josh: How much?
Jason: I don’t think, I wrote, “She was having an affair”. I think, I might have said, they were hanging out, a lot.
Josh: I’ll bet you, 5-1, on my last hundred. Did you know, they were having an affair?
Jason: Yes. I, just, said, “They were hanging out.”
Josh: For argument’s sake, you knew. Do I strike you as the type of man that would put up, with that?
Jason: I don’t know, if you would, or not. The point is, you’re trying to say, she was cast in this role? You weren’t, actually, in love with her.
Josh: Yes. Just as, Truman’s wife was cast in his world. I was, very, influenced by that film. In fact, the scene, that was most, influential, for me…
Jason: When did that film come out? Did it come out before or after this?
Josh: Before, I believe. Even, if it didn’t, it didn’t matter. I was interested in the relationship between, the real and the not real. Virtually, speaking. In particular, the scene, where, Truman is looking through the wedding album, and sees, his Truman Show’s wife’s fingers crossed, at the altar. Then, you start wondering, “Who is the wife?” She’s getting paid to be a wife. Is she having connubial relationships, with the man. Etc., etc.
Jason: It leads to a, very, big, “Wait a second. How could you do this to somebody?” How could Truman have been raised. It’s a sick, sick, demented…
Josh: It won’t be. As we go forward.
Jason: You think, Kim Kardashian, clearly, casted her husband, as a basketball player, or casting Kanye, as her new boyfriend or husband, or baby daddy. Who the hell knows.
Josh: It worked.
Jason: She cast herself in a porn movie.
Josh: A la Paris Hilton.
Jason: They were, both, supposedly, media constructs. They were done on purpose?
Josh: For arguments sake. There’s an audience, out there. They saw what she did and would like to emulate that. What I’m proposing, with NetBand Command, is just that. Not, exactly, that per se. The idea that people have a need, or are willing to do, just, that.
Jason: You did that. You were in love with, had relations with, a woman, who, you were not, in live with, cast, as your mate.
Josh: I was never in love, with her. No.
Jason: Was she in love with you?
Josh: That’s what was the nightmare. Because, the more she fell in love with me, the more, she hated me.
Jason: Because, you weren’t, actually, in love, with her. And, she sensed it?
Josh: Just as Truman sensed it.
Jason: What kind of person, Josh, just, to be frank, here, for a second, does something, like this? It seems, a little, sick and demented. Do you, not, think? Why, did you do it?
Josh: In the context, of the art form, in the spectrum of, those people, who do the kind of art form that, I do, I’m one of the hard core guys. There’s no mincing. It’s about the art. It’s not about the morality, in that context.
Jason: So, you have to do something…?
Josh: That’s what you have to do, to be the best, in the world, at what you do.
Jason: Do you think, you hurt her, in that process?
Josh: I think, it was a two-way street. Did I hurt her? The question, really, is, at the time, if you would have said, if you do all this, you are going to be in a grand jury prized, Sundance winning film, that features you, looking, really, good.
Jason: She wanted to be famous, at that time?
Josh: She wanted to be an internet pop-star. She had a show, on Pseudo:Tanya TV. Sort of, about sex. Not that I was getting any of it. Although, I have to say, on the NBC clip, if you watch it go forward, it shows us having sex, under the covers. So, I’ve had sex, on NBC.
Jason: Was it, really, sex?
Josh: It was, really, sex.
Jason: Wow. Hold on, a second.
Josh: Let’s have her find that clip and zip it in.
Jason: No. I got it. You tell me, when, to stop.
Josh: You can see it. We’re under the covers, on the Joseph Munson designed bed.
Jason: She’s getting dressed. You look thin, kid. There you go. That’s you guys, having sex.
Josh: No. Let it go. You’ll hit it. You’ll notice, the design, I have. With, the video integrated with the chat. Speaking, now, commercially, in doing, We Live In Public, this is the format, we did. Cloudcasting-wise. I had big walls. So, I would be projecting, continuously, the main screen, which, showed the live video feed, with the chatters, chatting. Literally, they would say, something. You would read what they were saying. Then, without, doing anything, you could comment, back to them.
Jason: So, you would walk around your house, and you would see, on the projector, what they were, saying. It was, almost, like, they were in your house.
Josh: Not, only, in my house. They were in my head.
Jason: You went, a little, crazy, from that. Being on under that microscope?
Josh: I’ll give you the analogy of where it happened. Toward the end, we got into a fight. She told me to go and sleep on the couch. Which, was, completely, out of character. I couldn’t understand it. A half an hour, later, my people, the people, in my head, my head people…
Jason: The chatters.
Josh: Let’s call them, my head people. They told me, that, her head people, gave her the strength to, put me up to the couch, move.
Jason: So, they pumped her up and said, “Kick him out.”
Josh: Think of her as a hard drive. They were the virus.
Jason: They infected her?
Josh: They infected her brain. That’s how it works. You start to losing control of your, individual, self.
Jason: Is that happening, now? When, people get, so, caught up in Twitter, that, they’re talking about their life. Whether, it’s Julia Allison or any one of these, “fame ball’ people, who are, just, out there, so, much. Their whole life’s in public. Everything’s exposed. Do you think they start living for the audience, than living with the audience. The audience is controlling, them?
Josh: It’s becoming a two-way street. NetBand Command, is just, a function, of making that a much more efficient, highway.
Jason: Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. The audience is driving them, as much as, they are driving themselves.
Josh: Looking at Kim Kardashian or looking at the TV show, Big Brother, as we sit, here, together, in 2012. Let me give you the pertinent axiom. With broadcasting, which is, Kim Kardashian, Big Brother, et al, the reality train, up to, this point, the audience, watches the network production. With, cloudcasting, leveraging and taking advantage of the internet, the network, watches the audience.
Jason: The network watches the audience?
Josh: So, that everyone has an opportunity, to try to be Kim Kardashian. Instead of, a million people watching eight people, in the Big Brother room, you have 100 people, watching a million people, from their home studios.
Jason: That’s the next stage?
Josh: That’s the tectonic shift we’re sitting in, right now.
Jason: But, nobody’s done it, yet?
Josh: Yes. I, believe, I have the production technique. It’s, just, a production technique. Cloudcasting, broadcasting, film making, radio programming, netcasting, are all, simply, production technique. I’ve put it all, together. I think, that production technique know-how, the sweet spot is on Madison Ave., but, more particularly, in Hollywood.
Jason: How does this NetBand Command, as you call it, how does it work or differ, from, Quiet, Pseudo, or what we’re doing, right now?
Josh: It’s putting those pieces, together, really. The working model, of what I’m proposing is, what you have in your house. Do you have ADT?
Josh: So, in ADT, you’ve got, a bunch of guys, in a room, who are monitoring the perimeter, of your house. They communicate, with you, when, an event happens. Good, bad, or indifferent. The idea is, to pierce the interior, of the house. Whether it’s NetBand Command, or more likely, as we go forward, the various sponsors of the programming, to stratify, each segment of your daily activity, within the domicile. We’re not getting into home, mobile, or office. Just, sticking with the house. So, I go back to the future of toothpaste. There’s going to be a moment, in time, in the not too far distant, there’s going to be a device, you put into your mouth, that does the Crest oral hygiene monitor. If your missing a floss or you have a cavity, someone will pop up on your monitor. The appropriate person, crowd sourced, all the way up to the top oral surgeon, will come in and tell you what to do. That’s half of it. The other half is, at that moment that you’re brushing your teeth, the Crest studios… because, they’ll have a million people using their product, they’ll have to produce it… Crest studios, will put the electronic calories, that are best suited to your individual identity, in front of your eyeballs, ears, and senses. That, may be, live people or dropped in media, or whatever, but, very, vertical media. In particular, they will connect you, in space and time, with other people, who are like-minded or algorithm-minded,
Jason: So, I’m shaving, with Edge Gel…?
Josh: You’re shaving, with Edge Gel, on a monday morning… Let’s take toothpaste. That’s something you do, every day, at multiple times. Monday morning, at 9 o’clock, I put Michael Jordan, in your toothpaste mirror, and you’re into it. I guarantee, you personally, as Jason Calacanis, are up for it.
Jason: You’ll show, what video? Is it customized video
Josh: No. Actually, Michael Jordan, or more, likely, because of the odds, his proxy. A live, interacting human being or his proxy.
Jason: One to one, or…?
Josh: Times twenty or one to one, depending. More likely, a multiple video chat room. But, that’s monday, at 9 a.m. Then, saturday, at 2 in the morning, when, you’ve just got back from partying, not saying, that, you or I do that, but when you come back from partying, you’re in a, totally, different mindset, and you want John Belushi, or the modern day variant. Those people are, totally, different, than the guy on monday morning. The agency’s job is to try to find the optimizing algorithm, that will connect you, in space and time, with the most psychically resonant media, that they can. More often than not, it will incorporate a live component. I know how to do that, at this point.
Jason: We’re all going to install screens in our bathrooms?
Josh: Let’s, just, say, for argument’s sake, it’s Crest, and it works. There’s a good argument? There’s the oral hygiene monitor, you can see, that’s a done deal. But, it works. If, all of a sudden, they can piggyback on that, putting the right people to brush with you and it works, you can bet your ass that the shampoo people and the shaving people, et al. Times, let’s call it a hundred micro day parts. Home events, a hundred day parts of time, those, little teeny things, that happen. Each one of those places, a la the Minority Report, the famous Spielberg scene, where, he’s walking through with contextual ads…
Jason: Right. Things would say, “Hey, Josh.”
Josh: Computers know how to put you, together, with that.
Jason: With your retinal display. Do you think, users are going to go for that? Is there enough benefit?
Josh: Of course. If I put Michael Jordan, in your room…
Jason: If you told me, everybody was going to check in, every time, they went into a place, and say, they’re here and what they’re eating, that would seem, like, it was crazy, ten or twenty years, ago. What you’re saying, does sound, a little, crazy. You realize that, don’t you?
Josh: No. It sounds, very, logical.
Jason: I’m saying, to other people. I understand, to you, you think it’s logical.
Josh: No. I’m optimizing the people you want to hang with, in the chat room.
Jason: Does this sound crazy to you, Tyler?
Tyler: Yeah. It’s the same, as with Quiet. To the people, then, it was out of their mind.
Jason: you think, actually, Tyler, that you will be shaving your head, shaving your beard, or brushing your teeth, and you’re going to want to watch someone else’s…
Tyler: He’s taking, what’s happening, now, and extrapolating it to it’s end result. Right?
Jason: You have Chat Roulette and AirTime, which are connecting people, on their computers, when they want to chat, but it doesn’t seem to be working.
Josh: But, they’re not well produced.
Jason: There’s this bubble of, what’s happening. Let’s let that, volcano erupt, and, what does that look like. Take it, all the way to the end. What do humans, really, want? Let’s bring it to them. Make it happen.
Josh: The king of algorithms is Google. Larry Page, if you’re out there, this must make sense, to you.
Jason: What ever is the most emotional thing, that can possibly happen, is going to happen. That’s what’s going to drive, reaction.
Josh: If the Nicks are in a playoff, and, because, you’re, Jason Calacanis, the crowdcasting celebrity, so, you’re worthy, to be in with former Nicks, before the playoff game, you’re into it, my friend.
Jason: Of course, I am.
Josh: If you’re a poor person, you’re going to get the duds. The rich people, will get the good guys and the poor people won’t be able to talk to them, so easily. Like, you can’t, really, talk to someone, on a call-in radio show. Sort of, that same lottery effect.
Jason: Got it. So, we can, all, be watching Carmelo Anthony, brushing his teeth, while, we’re brushing our teeth.
Josh: More likely, it’ll be a proxy. An approximation of somebody that has, some, match with your identity: psychically, by time. All the things that go into the algorithm.
Jason: What if I’m not social? I don’t want to talk to, anyone, at that time. I, just, skip it?
Josh: Then, they’ll know who you are and that you need to skip it.
Jason: Interesting. It seems like Google Glass would be a better fit, for this. Have you heard of the Google Glass? Projecting your eye, kind of thing.
Josh: Yeah. That’s way in the… I don’t know how to produce that. What I’m talking about, I know all of the glide paths, into that.
Tyler: In essence, you look at the advertising that exists, today, online, as paleolithic, in it’s complexity. You’re taking that same thing and making it more…
Josh: I’m making it, more efficient.
Tyler: To the ultimate X degree.
Josh: This, isn’t, even, the ultimate X degree. The X degree would be
Tyler: I mean, X degree, in the next twenty years.
Josh: No. I can build everything, I’m talking about.
Jason: I know you can do it, today. It’s where things will, probably, eventually be, if left to it’s own devices, in ten years, from now.
Josh: No. I think, we’re talking, zero to three years.
Tyler: You’re seeing, way ahead.
Josh: No. I’m telling you, that’s the time’s… whether, Crest comes out with mirrors in everybody’s houses, probably, not. But, the connection of people, in space and time, within three years.
Tyler: When you were doing Quiet, in your mind, how far away, did that seem, at that time?
Josh: Now. I did Jupiter. I know all the time. I did the math.
Tyler: You, really, think, it’s three years, out.
Josh: Zero to three. If, I start production, now, a year, from now, I can make this happen.
Jason: O.K. What am I looking at, here?
Josh: I don’t know.
Jason: Here, on this screen. Look. This is NetBand Command?
Josh: Can you leave that up? I’d like to point something out. If you look on the right screen. I did Operator 11, in the mid 2000s and I figured out the platform design. Peer to peer, with my secret sauce, nowadays, which, we won’t go into. I made a mistake on that right hand side. That, really, worked. Those, really, were operators. We called it Operator 11. They were operators and they were communicating. They were the people, that, if you were at your Crest mirror, in the future, that’s one of the people, you might talk to. The thing is, I made a mistake, in the studio design.
Jason: The “U”?
Josh: The real problem was, I should have thought about, N.A.S.A. or the NBC News. Which, is on the left-hand side.
Jason: Everybody looking at a big screen?
Josh: They’re focused like mission control of Apollo 12.
Jason: So, they’re looking at some projector, at the top?
Josh: Yeah. In fact, the analogy for NetBand Command, let’s stick with the Apollo launches. Remember, Apollo 13, the movie. Cause, everybody’s seen that. If, you think about what happened, you had a hundred people, in a studio, watching, interacting, and taking biometrics of, eight people, in a capsule. Correct?
Josh: There was true interaction and they were guiding their lives. Literally. All I’m proposing, now, with NetBand Command is, the modern-day commodification, of that process. The people that are sitting in mission control, aren’t just looking at one capsule. They’re looking at millions of people’s capsules. Eventually, biometrics, but, definitely, including audio, visual, and textual communications. It’s, just, a production process. Really, it’s, fairly, straight forward, if, you know what you’re doing.
Jason: So, something, like this, where, they’re at mission control, seeing all the statistics.
Josh: Yeah. If soldiers feet are on the ground, in Afghanistan, and nothing is going on, the Master-Sargent, is monitoring. A fight breaks out and it goes up five levels. So, there’s a whole hierarchical element, to all of that. That is part and parcel of what’s missing in Facebook. Let me do a parenthetical, here. I think, I know, the true genius of Facebook.
Josh: We were around for Six Degrees and all of the comparable.
Jason: Friendster, Rize, everything, else.
Josh: You know why Facebook made it?
Josh: Nope. They follow the Chairman Mao or the Fidel Castro model. They had, a few thousand, hardcore loyalists. In this case, at Harvard University. They happened to be highly influential, in that case. That was the kernel, of their army. They started out with a kernel of the army. I think, that’s the genius of Facebook. End of parenthesis.
Jason: Is this an art project, is it a business project, or is it a television project, as you see this? Can this, possibly, get off the ground, today?
Josh: First of all, I’m seeking venture capital, so, it’s for business.
Jason: It’s for business. Not, an art project. You said Pseudo, was an art project, at times.
Josh: Pseudo was… I was in it to, win it. Me and Mark Cuban, one day, were on a panel, at a conference, and…
Jason: It was pierced.
Josh: Yeah. Pseudo was a fake company. Again, I did Jupiter. I knew the numbers. I knew what the bandwidth were, what our market reach was. How many computers, with modems, there were out there.
Jason: Is this fake or is this real, this time?
Josh: Totally. I am, totally, for business. In fact, if you look at my history. I did Jupiter. I closed. That was the end of that game. Back to the poker analogy. I’m, just, in an extremely long session.
Jason: This is a long game, trying to get this to work, isn’t it?
Josh: Yeah. I now, have all of the pieces, together. One of the most important piece, in the puzzle, is the time. We’re at the right time for the product. If Hollywood took, a close look at, Facebook or YouTube, they’re, very, ill-produced. There’s no production, at Facebook. YouTube is trying, but, the DNA, in Silicon Valley, is not designed for production. Hollywood and Madison Ave., in my opinion, is where the golden age of cloudcasting will emerge. Not, from, up there. All the underpending technology, all the platforming, the low cost of cloud distribution and storage, is resolved. They have a long, slow glide down to, whatever, they’re going to be. L.A., in particular, this is where the action is.
Jason: What do you think, it’s going to take, to start something, like this? How many people, would be involved? What’s the minimum viable product?
Josh: A million bucks gets me, enough, to get me to the series A. Which, is five million. I’m, pretty, confident of that. Do you want to know the play?
Josh: Again, the whole idea, is hierarchical chat. The chat rooms talking to each other, report upward, to the set. The set is designed, as a cyber ship, run by a Captain Kirk. Not, so, dissimilar, as you. Running this cyber ship. The idea is, that it’s video chat. The key thing, about the video chat and the platform design is, that, the director, opens a session, the show, it lasts for an hour. In that hour, people are video chatting, back and forth. Or, are dragging and dropping video clips in. At the end of the hour, the file closes. Each person gets that recording, relationally. They can go back to that recording, from six months, ago. Trim it out and drop it into a new show. Meanwhile, while they’re chatting, back and forth, in real time, if something interesting happens, and let’s say, you have a million hours a day of people chatting, back and forth, all told, 200 hundred thousand people. Statistically, you’re going to get, Chanel News at 9. Things are going to happen. Murder, mayhem..
Jason: It’s more, like, the Big Brother concept.
Josh: It’s more, like, the Truman Show, times many. Cause, if you have a good signal… somebody’s committing suicide… you get rewarded for sending the signal, up the line.
Jason: It breaks out, virally?
Josh: It sends out the elixir. The golden elixir, of signals, all the way up, to Captain Kirk. A million hours of cloudcast, converts to, a one hour broadcast show.
Jason: Which, is what YouTube’s, “Most Popular” list is, in a way?
Josh: Except, this is done, more, efficiently.
Jason: It’s, pretty, efficient, on YouTube.
Josh: I can do it, more, efficiently. Easily. That one hour is billboarded on what we call in broadcast television.
Jason: If, people, went and had YouTube, on their TV, which, they’re starting to, and they, just, clicked a button, that said, “Play the Top 25 Videos”, on YouTube, today. Or even the “Top 10”, would be, pretty, interesting. What you’re saying is, edit that, even more?
Josh: What I’m saying is, socially mediate it, so when you watch that show, it’s two or three degrees, of separation. You might be in the show, or, people two degrees, later, are in that show. The difference, between, broadcast Chanel News at 9, is that’s geographical footprint. That’s turning into the AM radio. It’s, still, there, but, it’s not what it once was.
Jason: It’s not necessary.
Josh: This is a virtual footprint. You’re psychically, connecting people in space and time. Distilling America’s Funniest Home Videos, or whatever, it is, to a one hour show. You broadcast that, on HBO. billboards and that helps build the audience, both ways. The ad dollars, below the broadcast are, very, likely, much more valuable, than above the line.
Jason: You’ve blown my mind, once, again. Much more to discuss. Let’s bring in our friend, Mark Skarpa, who was, there. During, all this madness. Wow. Crazy. It’s like a reunion. We’re, just, sitting, here, reminiscing. We’ve went through the whole history.
Josh: Should I put it to, Mark?
Jason: Is it going to be about, Tanya, again?
Josh: Of course.
Jason: For a guy, who, wasn’t in love, you really feel the need to make sure, everybody know that you were not in love, with her.
Josh: Ask Skarpa.
Jason: Do you buy this?
Josh: Truman Show girlfriend, or not, Mark?
Mark: Truman show girlfriend. 100%.
Jason: Really? He cast her. That’s it?
Mark: One hundred percent.
Josh: Thank you.
Mark: I saw the emails. I also knew about, how you were being extorted, for money, at one point, as well.
Josh: I had everything.
Jason: Wow. Extorted for money.
Mark: By the Truman Show girlfriend.
Jason: Wow. Who knew.
Mark: She felt, should be paid, for her services. Novel idea.
Josh: Once, she figured out, the jig was up.
Jason: Paid for services. Paid for services rendered.
Josh: Back to Truman’s wife.
Jason: Which, one of the over-arcing questions, of Truman’s wife, was…?
Josh: What happens, when that gig was up?
Jason: She was getting paid, to be…
Josh: What was she?
Mark: Josh, did it a different way. He didn’t pay, Tanya, to be that.
Josh: I did get her a job, at Pseudo, which, paid her and all that.
Josh: She was, absolutely…
Jason: She did the role right.
Josh: She was perfect, for the part.
Jason: I was, always, very fond of her.
Josh: Can I go to part B?
Josh: Mark, do you think, she regrets, a moment, of it?
Mark: Absolutely, not.
Josh: If, it didn’t work out, then, I’d be a bad guy.
Jason: Yeah. Absolutely.
Josh: That’s the edge.
Jason: So, worth a hundred million. Where did it, all, go?
Josh: Where did it all go?
Jason: Obviously, the stock market collapsed and you lost, most, of it.
Josh: That’s most of it.
Jason: You were worth, all that, on paper?
Josh: I’ve had a good cry, three times, in my life. That was one of them. There was a day. Actually, by the way, just as a side bar, here. You know, when they say, they call your loan?
Josh: I was at Goldman Sachs, and, my stock was there, and, like an idiot, I borrowed, against the stock. But, I didn’t know.
Jason: Which, is what everybody is doing against, Facebook, right now,by the way. I was talking to somebody, they said, in the Valley, Goldman and some of these other folks, are, like,”biting their nails. Cause, they’ve loaned out, billions of dollars, to people, on the Facebook stock, and, all, of the Facebook stock, from the insiders, comes out, later, this month, in, October and, in November. They’re scared to death, that they’re going to have to call all of those people, for their loans. Or, some, portion of their loans and that will drive the stock price down, even, further. The stock is going to go, down to $10. Then, that’ll drive, even, more people, to liquidate, their stock. Cause, people have built a twenty million dollar, forty million dollar, whatever. Jets or houses or madness.
Mark: Your recommendation is to buy it, at, $25.
Jason: If you have a five to ten year outlook, in worse case scenario, I think, the company becomes a $50 billion dollar company. Right now, it’s trading at about that, or less. I don’t think, there’s much downside risk, to buying, anywhere, from $25. If you’re buying, $10-$15, it’s a lot of, upside.
Josh: I’m, bearish. I don’t agree. I think, there’s the MySpace factor.
Jason: It’s possible. That’s a possibility. I think. their ad network, alone. If they charged for Facebook Connect. If, you’re a website, just, to charge for authentication. If they, just, charged every site that used Facebook Connect, a small fee. Under ten thousand users, it’s free, a month. Over a hundred thousand users, a thousand dollars, a month. Over a million users, ten thousand a month. Those people would, easily, pay.
Mark: I, totally, concur. I think, there’s no comparison between Facebook and MySpace. One, big difference is MySpace was acquired by, NewsCorp., which, in essence, killed the company.
Jason: They weren’t a technology company. By the way, I need to introduce you. Mark Skarpa, is somebody, who was at Silicon Alley. Did some of the first, webcasts, cybercasts, Tibetan Freedom Concert, etc… He’s been doing webcasting, basically, along, with, Josh. Just created the category.
Josh: Mark, I can’t remember the name, but, you did a beautiful virtual reality show at Pseudo. Maybe, mid 1990s. How was it entitled?
Mark: We called it, Over Stimulation. It was a two day, virtual reality, immersive experience. In your loft.
Jason: What did you do? I went to it, I think.
Mark: You were there. We had eight different types of VR pods, that came in from all across the country and the world. We had feed.com. Was one of our folks, there. We had EBN, Emergency Broadcast Network, performed.
Josh: It was a good layout and curation of installations.
Mark: That was the first time, we collaborated, actually. Then, it went on to the radio show and streaming.
Jason: What do you think, about his ideas, around NetBand? Possible? Too far, ahead? Just right?
Mark: I think, it’s already happening. I think, Josh’s spin on it, is right. What he’s concerned about is telling stories. Allow people to share stories and get access to stories. We’ve all seen platforms, come and go, over the years. Going back to ’95, ’96. But, platforms are lacking story telling. As, more, producers, get involved, that want to use these different tools, to tell stories, then, it’s a, real, revolution. You can do it for a lot of transformational ideologies and transformational good. You’ve got companies, like, ooVoo. That are, in essence, pretty, much the platform that Josh is talking about, in some regards. They’ve, already, got 54 million users.
Josh: Mark, just so, we’re clear. That vernacular, that you used, the problem with ooVoo, is, similar to Facebook. They’re users. They’re not audience.
Mark: That’s right. They’re a user. Not audience. I personally feel, the term viewer, is dead. I like the term participant. To me, it’s all about participation. The audience should be respected. Not, just, as a consumer, but, as a participant and contributor to, the creation of the content, itself. That’s what you’re talking about. Philosophically, I agree. There’s another company, that you should look at. They’re called, On Cam. They’re, basically, powering Vivo, right now. In this multi-tiered, video chat environment.
Jason: It’s not called, ChatterSpace?
Mark: It used to be called, ChatterSpace. They, just, changed the name. Great group of guys.
Josh: I worked with, the William Morris Agency. Your friend, Marc Geiger. For argument’s sake, my dream scenario, is to get HBO 9. One of their off channels, to start with. A stripped show. One hour, a night. Take the distillation of the best video chat, which, I believe, I can produce, very, well. The best video chat, of the night. Like, a news report. Billboard it, there. Use that to help the existing audience, validate their existence. Cause, they’re on HBO. Then, have a self reflective process, that, enables me to grow that audience.
Mark: It’s crowdsourced, curated content. You just need to have context, within, each show. You look at something, like, Funny or Die, that has a HBO deal, right now. The idea of taking assets from the web or the internet, and creating all media properties, is very timely. It’s something that’s, absolutely, happening.
Josh: My main top lines, to the television folks is simply that, In that one hour on HBO, as a strip show, I can generate, a million hours of cloudcasting video inventory. Which, via, crowdsourcing, and at the tip top, professional television people, condense that into a one hour show. The idea is that I’m working at a one million to one, ratio. For a newscast. Which, in comparison to network newscasting, which is, at best, is doing, 200 to 1. Statistically, just by bare numbers, the product will be far superior. That’s one of my key arguments. What do you think, Mark? Will it hold water.
Mark: The analogy that you’re making, I think, is, probably, a lot for these executives to take in.
Josh: I’m asking you.
Mark: For me, I think, it’s fine. You have an exponential amount of content contributors, out there. As long as, you can reach them.
Josh: I have a production process, that will, in a hierarchal, orderly fashion, distill, the best ofs. It’s Operator 11, three degrees, later.
Mark: You just need associate producers, skimming through all the content.
Josh: No. It’s crowdsourced.
Mark: It’s crowdsourced, but, it still has to be curated, in some way.
Josh: The curation, generally, happens, at the top. The other fundamental piece of that is, you need a sound stage. Pull up my NetBand.
Mark: I’ve seen that.
Josh: You need a sound stage, that is able to receive those signals. Part of the gameplay of The NetBand Command is, the people on the soundstage, aren’t actors, they’re audience members, who have earned their way to set. Very, comparable to a million YouTube views. When, they finally, get to set, they represent a constituency, of the people that led them to be there.
Jason: Voted them up.
Josh: Those people that got there, by the way. Going back to the very beginning of the Quiet installation, in order to get them, there, they have to fly them in. They have to stay, there, a period of time. That’s quiet. Why are capsule hotels. They eat and sell food. That’s eight hours a day. For the other sixteen hours, all the people on that NetBand Command, are, really, doing is, watching and interacting, with audience members, both, on set, but, more often, out in the ether, out in the cloud. That’s the game.
Mark: It’s an interesting game. It’s analogous to, in terms of the hierarchy, they earn their right to be there. It’s very analogous to a maker studio model. So, in order to become part of the maker studio family, for example, you need to have a certain amount of followers and viewers, within the YouTube community. You fix that up on your own. Eventually, you’re part of a creative community, that will support your creative endeavors. Subsequently, you can generate more revenue. Becoming more well known and famous.
Josh: I think, what i’m proposing is, the Hollywood version.
Mark: They are, very, “Hollywood”. What you’re talking about, is the live version. Which, is quite different.
Josh: Video chat is, predominantly,a live medium. Even though, your dragging and dropping clips in. As, Jason has been doing contextually, within the show.
Mark: What about using these existing platforms, like, ooVoo or OnCam?
Josh: First of all, I like to have, complete, control of my technology. The cost of development, because, the platforms are, so, sophisticated, it’s de minims. It’s more important to have control of your platform. For, example, to get to set, there’s a currency, involved. IT has a massively, multi-playing online gaming element. There’s a currency, involved, and you have to have a currency element.
Jason: So, people can be buying things?
Josh: One of the things, that happens, when you have an audience, out there, and they’re trying to get set the focalization of getting to set, is you can get them to work, in unison. That’s important, because, if you’re an audience member and you have a lot of money in your bank, and you have a pothole, in front of your house, and you willing to spend the dough, you can get a thousand people to hassle your local mayor, however, they do it, video or whatever.
Mark: It’s already happening.
Josh: It’s, sort of, crowd pressuring them.
Jason: They call it a human flesh search, in China.
Josh: Yeah. We’re cyber-fleshing it.
Jason: It doesn’t mean flesh, in any kind of sexual way. It means find out all the human aspects, to a person, their secrets and everything. Some official, some administrator, was seen smiling at, the wreck of a train. He’s sitting there, smiling and laughing, looking at the train wreck. Somebody caught that picture. They were, like, who is this person? Almost, like, the Reddit community or Anonymous.
Josh: They put him in their virtual interrogation room?
Jason: They did a virtual interrogation room. Then, they found pictures of him with watches, that were, very, expensive. How does this guy have all these expensive watches, on a salary. They kept going. They found out his girlfriend. They found out about his mistress. They found out about who was paying him off. He loses his job and then, he goes to jail.
Josh: Now, if I was that guy at the train station, and I had a lot of money, in my NetBand Command account, I would deploy countermeasures, against the people, who, were trying to take me down. That costs money.
Jason: My brain is fried. I can’t take anymore. I can’t keep all this in my head at one time. This has been a fascinating discussion. It’s, interesting. When, I talk to Josh, I fade, in and out of, moments. This has, historically, been the case. For two decades. I fade, in and out of, moments, when, I, understand, what you’re saying, then, not understanding, it. Then, understanding it, later. Whether, that, later is, later, that evening, or, later, that month. Or, later that decade. I, truly, believe, you are, one of the pioneers, of the space. I owe a lot to you, for giving me a lot of opportunities. I, appreciate, that. And, a lot of, mentoring, over the years. You’re a, true visionary and a friend. You’re on to something, here. I, think, you’re going to have great success, with it.
Jason: If, people, need to get in touch, with you, the best way to do that, is?
Jason: That’s it. Or, email me and I’ll do an intro.
Josh: By the way, I’ve pulled the arrows, out of my back. I’m, now, a settler.
Jason: Wow. Pulled the arrows, out of his back. He’s now a settler. There you go. From, Josh Harris, “He’s, now, a settler.” He went up the hill. He took the arrows. he’s O.K. You’ve, always, been O.K., in my book. What an amazing life. We, all, should be so lucky, to have done, what you’ve done. It’s a pretty big shadow, you cast. Everything, I’m doing, here, at ThisWeekIn is, a direct rip-off of, what you did. The Launch Conference, TechCrunch 50, all started, watching you do the Jupiter events.
Josh: I don’t think, anyone, in this room, is a slouch.
Jason: Keep in mind, Tyler’s, here. No. Tyler’s, the man. Do you have anything to say. You watched the movie. I always think it’s a great wrap up. You like to interrupt, anyways, so, I thought I’d let you.
Tyler: You going to, let me, interrupt, now?
Jason: I have to let you interrupt, now. What is it? Like, a valet, in the dessert? What is it? A wheelchair at Disney Land? Giving a nun roses? Go ahead.
Tyler: No. Josh is his own insight. Josh is an axiom insight, in and of himself. It’s amazing to see things through, Josh’s eyes. To me, he’s right. I, love, the idea of, “Where does this, really, all lead?” The emotions, of people. Where’s it driving us, at the end of the day, and where’s it going to go?
Jason: The accelerant of technology
Tyler: When, you take out the friction, lubricant of technology,
Jason: The base instinct, of humans.
Tyler: Right. Where, is it all, going?
Jason: Where does it go off the rails? Where, does it lead us to great places?
Josh: Let me, conclude, on one note. As, I explained, at the top. You have a hundred micro day parts, in a day. What drove me crazy, from We Live In Public, truly, was that, I had a psychic fracture. I hadn’t been conditioned to have these micro dayparts, in my life. When, I had the psychic fracture, I entered the hive. That’s how it’s going to happen.
Jason: People enter the hive.
Josh: There’s no “you”, in you, anymore. You’re, just, a collection of those micro dayparts. Individuality ceases to make sense, in the modern world.
Tyler: That’s where technology, touches, on spiritually. That’s wild.
Josh: I’d like to say, evolution.
Jason: It’s not, evolution, in the case of biology. It’s a case of techno-biology. Our biology is outdated. Our DNA is way outdated. Our DNA has to catch up with the technology.
Josh: You know what’s, really, cool about all of this? Like, when we came down, from the trees. Or, when we learned to use a tool, or, the wheel. All four of us, are going to be present, when this happens.
Jason: Hopefully. Knock on wood, we will be, here. When, it happens. Thanks, Mark, for coming in and sharing your thoughts.
Mark: Thanks. I had a final thought. If, George Orwell, had a muse, it would be, Josh Harris.
Jason: Wow. There you go. Awesome. I like that.
Josh: I’m in.
Jason: That’s another, mind blowing one. Thank you, for tuning in to another episode of ThisWeekIn Startups. We’ll see you, next time.
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